From Invisible Tech to Industry Leader: DevHub’s Pivot Story with Mark Michael

For most of its existence, DevHub wasn’t a brand.

It was the engine behind other brands.

For over 16 years, Mark Michael and his team powered websites for agencies and marketing platforms—completely behind the scenes.

No visibility. No recognition. Just infrastructure.

Then everything changed.

In this episode, Mark shares the story behind DevHub’s bold decision to stop operating as a white-label provider and go direct to franchise brands—a move that required them to “burn the boats” and completely reposition the company.

Guy and Mark unpack:

• Why staying invisible eventually became a limitation
• The trade-offs of relying on middlemen
• What happens when you take back control of your product
• How franchisors can avoid the same mistake
• Why your website should never be outsourced as an afterthought

This episode is about more than tech—it’s about ownership, identity, and making the hard decisions that unlock the next level of growth.

Key Takeaways:

• Being behind the scenes can limit long-term growth
• White-label success doesn’t equal brand equity
• Going direct requires risk—but creates control
• Franchisors must own their core infrastructure
• The hardest pivots often create the biggest breakthroughs

Timestamps:
[00:00:00] – Why Most Franchise Brands Fail to Scale (10→100 Units)
 [00:01:30] – DevHub’s Origin Story: 16 Years Behind the Scenes
 [00:02:30] – The Bold Pivot: From White Label to Direct-to-Brand
 [00:04:30] – “Burn the Boats” Moment That Changed Everything
 [00:08:00] – The Co-Founder Dynamic That Built DevHub
 [00:12:30] – When Should Small Brands Invest in Tech Like DevHub?
 [00:33:00] – Brutal Founder Lesson: Hiring, Firing & Growth Pain
 [00:43:00] – Why Creativity & Side Projects Make You a Better CEO

If you’re serious about scaling your franchise—and you know something in your system needs to change—don’t wait until it becomes a bigger problem.

Go to guycoffey.com and book a free franchise growth strategy call

We’ll break down:

• Where you’re stuck
• What’s holding your growth back
• And what it actually takes to scale without losing control

No fluff. No theory. Just real strategy.

Connect with Guy Coffey:
LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/guycoffey
Website: www.guycoffey.com
Instagram: @guycoffey
YouTube: @guycoffey

Transcript

0:00

If you're an emerging franchise founder, you already know this. The jump from 10 to 100 units is where most brands stall out, not because the concept isn't strong, but because the founder is drowning in chaos. I'm Gee, coffee franchisor, franchisee, and growth strategist. I've been where you are and I know what it takes to build a brand that scales without burning out, selling out, or losing control. That's why I created the Franchise Scaleup Show. Every week I'll share the playbooks, the red flags, and the mindset shifts that separate the brands that stall from the ones that scale. So if you're serious about protecting your vision and multiplying your brand, hit subscribe right now. This is the Franchise Scaleup Show. I'm Gee, coffee. Let's get to work. Well, welcome to this next episode of the Franchise Scale Up Show with me. Gee Coffee. Today's guest is super interesting, great background in tech and art and film, and has a company that just happens to be also in the franchise industry, that may be a benefit to people listening. So without further ado, I'm gonna introduce Mark Michael of DevHub. It never gets old, um, when people reflect. On your, again, whatever they consider it, success, accomplishment, persona. And so, yes, thank you for having me on your platform. Well, it's a pleasure. So. Let's just get right into DevHub. Uh, I definitely wanna touch base on you. Um, but in terms of DevHub, DevHub started back in 2007, so it's been around a long time. Um, you've grown through, capitalizing it mul multiple rounds of venture capital, private equity. Right. Um, and it continues to get better and better, but if you could just encapsulate what DevHub does for the franchising industry, that would be fantastic. Come this September, it'll be our 19th year. And for the, the first, call it 16 years of DevHub. If you ever bought websites from an agency, from a marketing technology platform, that was us, uh, about three years ago. After we, through COVID and what we saw a lot of these agencies and marketing technology companies be delivering via our tech, we were like, the website is the most important thing and the brand should not be sacrificing that and what an agency's doing for them, but being the hub of what everything that an agency or marketing technology plugs into. And so until they control their website, we say that they don't control their digital marketing. So you can actually hold the vendors accountable and they don't also hold your website hostage. And so, alright. Would, would you say that's the biggest pivot that dev hubs had? Going brand? Yeah, going brand direct. Because again, all we knew was licensing our software to, you know, middlemen essentially. And we were white labeled, so no one even heard of the brand dev hub. Right. And so that's why it's been so fun to do these kind of podcasts. It's like I always tell people I always felt like a glorified, uh, drug dealer. Um, first, the first 16 years because they, like, you know, we would go to these conferences, um, marketing technology conferences, advertising conferences, and like, you know, half of the room would be using our tech. And it'd always be like, it'd get like a side eye, like, come over here. Like always like, you know, I didn't mind 'cause we were making money a little bit, but it was just like, and when we decided to basically burn the boats as they say about, oh, it'll be three years, you know, come this September. So a little bit, under three years at this moment in time. It's just been freeing. It's just been like one, you know, it's just been one great party so far. Well that is fantastic that it's working out, I imagine. There is some ruffled feathers and, but sometimes in business, that's what you have to do. What's best for the client and best for your own company, you know? Yeah. There was, but I guess the, the reason why I hesitated there for two seconds is like, actually now they're all actually coming back. Said, partners said agencies who are like, look, we wanna start telling people that we use DevHub. We want that to be our a value driver versus before where it was hidden. And again, like I always look at it like this is our, um, I don't know when you graduated high school, but there was a moment in time where if you had a gateway or Dell computer at your house, like you were like really cool, right? Like not compact, not hp. Not compact, not hp, you know, like, or even, uh, wherever your PC came, it was like deller gateway and like every commercial ended with like the intel inside. Remember it was Right. Sure. With Intel four, it was like, and my mom would be like, you know. Well, you know, it's cheaper if we get an A MD chip, you know? And I'm like, no, it has to be Intel, you know, and all my friends are gonna make fun of me. Right. Whatever. Like again, like it was the thing back then. I feel like that again, fast forward though, like having DevHub is that level of brand and strength that an agency should just be able to say, yeah, we built it on DevOp and a franchise brand. Be like, oh, thank God. Okay, cool. We know it's the best. And that's where like, again, like that's what's exciting at this moment is like, do we get partners again? Who one, know how to sell what they do really well and just sort of check the box knowing that the websites are powered by DevHub. So we'll see. I don't know. These next two quarters will be really interesting. Okay. All active conversations, you know. Are you gonna go to IFA? Yeah, for sure. You right? So you'll see, you'll see us there. I mean, it's really funny. I was sort of arguing with our marketing team, and again, I don't mean arguing, but more or less I was like, if you guys put the words digital marketing, if you put the words like live, laugh, love. If you put anything, let's grow. Like, I'm like, literally it's DevHub franchise websites. That's it. If anyone leaves that this. Conference IFA 2026 and it's like, what does dev hub do? I will literally like, doesn't know what we do. I'll be like, oh, you know, you'll never see me again. I can tell you that failure. The marketing team. Yeah. I'll be like, no, you're gonna, I'm out. I'm out. I can't, I don't know how much more obvious you can be. It's literally dev hub franchise websites. All right. All right. So it's like everybody's website that you have will be powered by DevHub so that they know that the, the infrastructure's really strong and it's the last, the website you'll ever need. Yeah. Like, and again, today, the way someone buys a website is like, someone basically sells 'em a redesign. They think it's, they think they're choosing a technology, typically WordPress or something else. The problem is like, that's a living, breathing thing as part of the, that's where leads come. That's where, um, a customer might wanna do more research. That's what the, you know, the chap or the LLMs are reading, right? Like. It's the most important thing at this moment in time for sure. And it can't just be like, okay, we just did our website, now I'm moving on to the next thing. It's like, okay, what? It's gotta stay with what's happening, you know, if you don't have pricing on the website, it's all the things, also all the things that we're innovating into the platform, so you don't even have to think about, um, yeah. Anyway, it just a really, yeah. Yeah. I can nerd out on it, obviously. I bet you can. I was even thinking, I, I have, uh, what you, what you mentioned graduating from high school and worrying about your pc. I, I, I didn't have that luxury. I was a little bit before that time, but I'm, I'm wondering if the, uh, you grew up in Seattle as well. That's where you're located right now, right. Uh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So, um, I wonder if that's more of like Northern California, Seattle, worry for kids in high school about which chip is powering their, their PC than, than other parts of the country. The nerd ones, for sure. So along this journey, from 2007 when you started this. I'm sure there's a cool garage story or something like that, or living room or something. But, um, and then growing and actually attracting funding and being in that, in that world and continuing to develop and stay on top of all the technological things that are going on as well. How have you kept up with that as a founder and leader? Is, is this just, this whole world is just part of your DNA and you're, you're in it all the time or No. Okay. Tell me No. Uh, again, I am. One half of the brain trust here. Again, not including our executives, not including, you know, all the individuals that work at DevHub, but purely like my co-founder and I have been business partners that long as well. I mean, we've been business partners since we were 17 years old. I always tell people he lets me be CEO. He's the smart one, he's the technologist. He's never been, I would say comfortable. In the current state of the state, everything is always evolving. The product is thousands and thousands and thousands of updates over these almost two decades, like. M ai, like we were so built for this moment.'cause we never let anything lapse in terms of whether it's just keeping our eye on it to see if it evolves into the thing or baking it into the actual technology of DevHub. Like he's the one that did all of that. I feel like I have the luckiest job in the world because I just get to go out here and just talk shit and like just be like loud and, you know, draw attention with a mask of these glasses and mustache and just like, who's that? What, what is it that they, you know, like I saw that guy and did a video, like da da da. I always just like, I'm all about like, how do we get the attention? I'm always rocking dev hub. Like whatever gets the attention that might convert to that. Again, customer one day. It's like, I just feel like I always tell, I tell the team every Monday, basically it's honor of a lifetime for me to be able to represent their actual hard work. Okay. You know, I wear the stress of everything, you know, which is kinda goes unseen. No, I've been very fortunate that, again, it's my co-founder that's actually kept up with all of it from a DA to all the Google updates before we were even talking about ai. It was Google's, I mean, hundreds of updates a year, big one, and just like, yeah, he kept it all in line. Wow, that's an interesting dynamic. You see that, uh, you're, you're obviously very fortunate as is he, because it, it really helps that one person isn't trying to have to wear all those hats because it would be mentally impossible, right? Yeah. Personality wise too, I'm sure. Yeah. I mean, again, he's, he's very funny. I mean, like you said, we've worked together for so long, we still work together. You know, Everyone always tells me this though. They're always like, oh, mark, you know, it seems like you're the one that likes to like, you know, party. And you're like, the social, it's not me, it's actually him. Right? Like, I don't, I can be in bed by like 8:00 PM you know, like at a conference or I'm out, I'm out. I hear stories. The next day they're like, you know, we were with Daniel till like three, four in the morning. I'm like. I'm like, what? I'm gonna, again, I'm not like, I'm always like, huh. That's, yeah, that's what he does. Like, it's always the quiet one. That's what everyone always says because everyone says he is quiet to me. He's always yelling at me, so I don't, I don't know that he fucked it, you know? But Yeah. Yeah. Everyone, it's the quiet ones that love the party. I'm like, yeah. They, they, they, uh, come out after midnight when they go to the after, after party, right? Yeah, exactly. Tell me what, in working with some smaller emerging brands, um, you know, I, at some point I would like to know like, when does Dev DevHub make sense for a smaller, emerging brand that's bootstrapped and, you know, doesn't have. OPM other people's money that they're spending, um, quite yet. But, just in terms of franchising, because it's definitely a sector for, for you guys that you focus on, what makes the tech in, in franchising so different than, you know, a, a company that owns a bunch of corporate stores, so. Emerging brands and what I call mid market brands, they're, it's so messed up because, you know. We used to say right around 20 locations or websites is where like you do need a little bit more of an infrastructure. I think we just launched one this week. You can go look it up. I think it's called Zynga Home. I mean by time this episode airs, I don't know how many locations they have. I don't think it's 20. I think it might be eight to 12. I could be totally misquoting that, but I'm like pretty sure it's something pretty small and ultimately. I don't think he care. It matters like how big the org is. It's a hundred percent. Who's on the their team. Mm. Because if the team understands like how they're gonna actually blow this thing out, whether they have two or they have 200 or 2000, like, I mean, look, there's a bunch of franchise brands out there that are in that one 50 to 200 range where it's like, you know, the founder's still making every single decision. It's like, you know, they have all these other people with titles and those titles. You know, have no authority to make any decision if this like non-no. Versus like, again, I'll say like Zinga is home. It felt like there was like a really good organization. Smaller, emerging, definitely. But like the right people that know their jobs that can make the decisions, the leadership, but owner, whatever you wanna call it, let's their execs make the, so it's like, I don't know. I personally, I always tell our salespeople and it's been very hard for us to even, um. I guess get salespeople to understand this. It's like each one is unique, and I'm saying it's unique based on like who's working there. Right? And so, you know, again, if it's a first time, let's say founder of a franchise versus the second time they've done it, like they've seen enough that they know enough, even though it might be small today, we know they can build it big again. Um. But on our end, what we've tried to do is like the smaller emerging or mid-market, uh, we just try to make it so they can just say yes more easily. Yeah. With knowing that once they're on DevHub, they'll figure it out. Um, and so that comes with like cheaper, um, not cheaper, I would say. Like, um, I. More pricing options so that it's not so front loaded. Right? So like, you know, a typical website for us is maybe call it on the very, very low end, 50 K to like the higher end is like, could be up to 200 plus K, you know, and that's just for the one time build. And there's the monthly hosting of every single site, blah, blah, blah. Which is a whole nother thing where people are like, why am I paying for, it's like, well, each one's an individual site anyway. Um. Again, making all the payment terms insanely flexible for emerging. Like, yo, we'll grow with you. Let's go, but you better grow, but you better grow. And so anyway, they get it. And so far it's been good, but it, it was a little bit of a learning curve for us because, you know, like, again, like in home services, in wellness, and anything where the product that they're selling is at least. I wanna say 50 to a hundred dollars. Again, if not more, is where the website's even, I mean, to me, like it pays for itself within like, not even a year. So who cares? A hundred K. But again, that's been like a little bit of a sales job to do for some of the emerging mid-market brands, but yeah. Yeah, yeah. When they're, we're dealing with smaller budgets, I love to hear that you're, you're, you're offering options for people to come in a hundred percent. On a program like you have, because if any, and it was interesting what you said about if someone's been through it before, if this is their second time guaranteed, if it's their second time, they're, they're, they are spending more money upfront on the technology that they want when they have 300 units. Because if anybody's been through a tech, you know, conversion or transfer of data and all that, they're like, never again, please. Right. I'll, I'll spend the money up front. So I, I love to hear that you're supporting emerging brands a hundred percent and, and making it possible. Like, like I said, it's been, it was challenging 'cause we just didn't get it a little bit, you know, like what the hesitation was. I mean, honestly it was price. I mean, and yeah, some of it, you know, so again, I was saying how do you work with them on that, but then obviously still explaining the whole value props of why this is. You don't have to think about this for the next go, go grow. And we have, and we've done everything from mattress firms to Sachs, to Nike. I mean like just outside of franchise is like the same thing that you're running seven and you think you want grow to, whether it's a hundred or 50 or 300 or like you're on the same platform. Like Roll Go. Yeah. Yeah. And don't, don't like go, just go, you know? So, and, and what, what I found in, in growing our own system was, you know, we would, we had a website, we started on it, um, any kind of system, whether it's CRM or you know, franchise management, and then we would get to a certain point, and even though we weren't gigantic or anything, it's like, you can't do it. You can't do anymore on this system. You have to go to a different system. Then, then it becomes even more complex because that system has to talk to three other systems, you know? And do they, not only does that system work, but does it integrate with your other systems that you have? So starting right, right from the start makes a heck of a lot of sense. And one of the things that I share with people thinking about franchising their, their concept is it's a different level of expenses that you're gonna have because you're, you're buying. Tech and tools that are scalable, so they're more expensive and the checks you write are bigger upfront and that's why you need a certain amount of money to get going in franchising. And some of the best tools frankly, are have been out of the price range of emerging brands. Like you can't do it like. For instance, maybe it's if, and if I misquote on this, like Buxton, you know, mapping software. It's like it's a very robust mapping software. If you started on Buxton, you're probably never gonna have to get off Buxton. I'm not, I'm not affiliated with them. Not a lot of emerging brands can afford$30,000 a month for their mapping software for their four units, you know, this year. Um, just as an example, what do you think the, with, with AI and all that kind of stuff, I'm sure you could go down a rabbit hole and you know, more than 99.9% of people on the planet about it. But like, just in general, what do you think's next for. Local digital marketing. Look, I'm always wrong for the record. So like, again, like I'm, I'm the guy that felt like COVID was just like a snowstorm. You know, we're gonna be back to work on Monday and then like the next market in three months. So, like, my co-founder is the better one, but I, I have been liking playing this prediction game. Um, so I think it's, it's. Sort of twofold, all encompassing related to obviously the website, which it'll make sense in two seconds. So one, you know, I keep saying like every three months I keep going, oh, I keep like, you know, ah, like these aha moments, like every three months with what is happening with, again. Capabilities of, call it AI and AI as we know it today. You know, sidebar, I still think Alexa should have been number one and just so dumb nowadays it's like, I can't even barely use it, but whatever. Anyway, so real quick. Okay. Let's just try about like, so I, I'll just say it, just to be clear, like, you know, to me. As we talk about AI today, we're talking about the large language models, chat, GBT, uh, Claude, um, rock, those, right? So like those for me, I'm saying it's chat, GBT. So I think the fundamental shift in how the. Consumer is using. It has changed multiple times in 2025, and now even more 2026. That fundamental change is making it more and more as a person in their life, even though it's hard for people to admit it, it's making it more like there's this other person in their life, call it chat. Some people have named it, which they're a little bit mm-hmm. Further along already. But again, your health records, your financial records. I, I mean. All the things that you talk to, your, the, if it's your therapist, all the, all your business ideas, all the things that are now stored. Let's say again for me, chat, GBT, so much so that if I ask chat, Hey, you know, we had that leak again in our house, or you know, I want to go work out or, you know, whatever, tell me where I'm supposed to go. And I think what's happening is like at some level that that, that ai, those models are getting, are getting more and more smart to me as Mark. And then we'll go, we'll be like, oh, Mark's not gonna go to, mark doesn't like to run. So, you know, maybe I'll find him their cycling class, and then it's like, mark, hey, I found this cycling class. It's only $19 for your first time. I could probably get you like, it's more of that. And then it's. Taking the action on my behalf and I'm just showing up to the place being yo chat book me or, you know, I think it's gonna be more of a guiding force. That information will all live on the website and it, it's not doing a Google search, it's, it's looking through weirdly directories, maybe some other things I've talked to before. But the biggest source of truth will be the website for everything. For at least a foreseeable five years, next five years. And then the, our interaction with AI will become more human for, again, lack of a better word, and more trusting of it to take the actions on our behalf. But they, in order to take those actions, those websites have to have the ability to complete those actions, but then also the information to be presented, in a way that, again, that. Chat will be able to read it and then again, obviously take the action on it. Again, the fun, the fundamental thing is it's not anything that's happening with ai. I'll say it's just that our, as a consumer, our interaction with AI is more, I think becoming more trusting with more and more personal information and it's becoming more and more of like a presence. I mean, just two, two quick more anecdotes. One, you know, it's funny, so I go between Seattle and New York City and in New York I started going to comedy clubs, which I never really had gone to really before, just for whatever it's worth. And it's like a couple comics in the last 2025 would bring up chat, GPT as like, you know, I was talking to Chad about the, and the audience just immediately just starts laughing. I think it's like a recognition that we're all doing that. You know what I mean? Right. And then, yeah. And then again, just even more recently, just I had some friends over yesterday. It's like, well, you know, Chad says that this is the better restaurant, right? And it's like, we're like, we're getting more comfortable admitting it. I think before it's like there was like a weird, like you didn't want to say. I don't know. It's just, it's just been interesting in that way where it's like, I think we're just talking about it and now, you know, I'm actually in Arizona right this minute. I mean, we're taking Waymo everywhere. it's here. It's here to stay. Yeah, there's no doubt about it. And, uh, yeah, it's not a, it's not a fad, that's for sure. No, no. I, uh, I've, uh, a, a customized one that actually speaks to me in a tone that I relate to as well. Um, and it, it, you know, I journal in it and so it knows everything I'm thinking. Right. Um, and it knows what my goals are. And then, you know. Just one of my challenges, like I start out super strong and, and then sometimes if I have a win, I take my foot off the gas for a little bit and it knows that, so it's just on me after every win it's like, keep going. You know? So, yeah, it's, it's really customized and I, I really enjoy it and. If you have no illusions of privacy anyway anymore, of walking around with phones in our pockets for 20 years, I, I know, I, I never, I never bought into that. Oh, you know my information. Yeah, right. Yeah. Like, get the, get outta here. It's like, no, everyone gave that up five years ago. Yeah. Besides that, 'cause you are a tech, sounds like you grow up in the tech world and you're on top of it, and you're talking to your partner who's even further down the path than you. Is there any like, just fun, small piece of tech that you've found as particularly enriching to your life? You know, like gadget or a service or an app or anything like that? Whether for your business life or, I know you also have many creative endeavors, filmmaking, and painting and, and, and fine art is another one of your hobbies? Anything like that? I'm looking around. Um, I mean, look, I'm not gonna lie, I'm like still the guy that like writes everything in a moskin every day, like my whole schedule, every single day, like pen and paper. I still have like a little zip this, my little fidget spinner right here, you know? Okay. Uh, I still have my, that's a dangerous fidget spinner, by the way. Yeah. Analog business cards still, you know, like I still write notes on like all index cards too. I, I, for me. It's very weird. Nothing gadget wise, I'm curious about like, you know, the brick stuff, right? Where you like can like shut off your phone and limit your time on the phone. The thing is like I'm, I love my phone. Like I, I'm not even share scared to admit it. I sleep with it. I mean, again, I just think it's a miracle I can run the whole company. Any ideas I have, anything I want to do is right here. You know, I haven't played with classes yet, you know? Okay. I haven't done that yet, um, because I need prescriptions, so it's like, I don't know if I would have to convert it. And so, no, I, I would say the one thing that I've been loving, and it's not anything new to anybody, but I'm surprised that a lot of people don't do it, is I just love YouTube. I think YouTube is so great. Like there's so many just great rabbit holes on there from like interior design to like fishing to, you know, urban exploration of just like some weird village in Africa. You know, I just think YouTube is great for like a little bit longer form and not just the dopamine hits of, TikTok and Instagram. So I don't know. I really, I really love that, but again, I'm also the guy that like, whatever I don't see that maybe doesn't exist, I will try to create it. And so I haven't found anything in the hardware realm of that. Okay. Um, but yeah. Yeah. I love to hear that a technologist like you is still writing in moleskin and with pen and paper and things like that. I do the same thing and I thought it was just 'cause I was old, but um, I do enjoy it cursive. I think I'm like, you're not about da Vinci. What are you talking about? I have a, you know, I'm like, one day they're gonna sell for $23 million. Just this one right here. There you go. Just the fact that I was on your podcast. Probably, yeah, that was the one that he held up on. oh, this one's gonna sell for at least 23. That's how insane. I think like yeah, it's a 10 x multiplier. Hundred percent for sure. That this is the provenance of this existing. Because it showed up on this podcast right here. Yeah. Yeah. I started doing, um, personal business cards, and again, nothing, nothing. I didn't put my phone number on it because again, I'm on social enough, right. I think like, think some of the analog stuff I still, I still really like. Well, yeah, and going back to the ai, just to touch base on it for a minute, like. You get an analog card with like, something you can feel with paint on it or, or something like that. You know, it's real. Again, I think it's like, I mean my other weird, not even a prediction, I'm not, definitely not the first to say this at all, which is again, like what you're doing and what I do even on social outside of this, is like this is more, this will be more valuable, but then potentially as you activate a different gee avatar ai. Knowing that it's, it was still spawned by something within your brain. And because you are socially, you know, active out there, I don't know how else to say that. Um, yeah. I don't know, like I still think that you'll be able to build your own network, right? This is the franchise one, but maybe you have one that's all about fitness or whatever. French stuff. Mm-hmm. I dunno. And it's okay because at least there's a human, you as like that pseudo puppet master to build out like a real network of um, yeah. Anyway, kind. It's, it's replicating an authentic self rather than creating Right, but not, but the fact that the authentic self of you exists and it's public like this Yeah. Is what's gonna help those other ones do better, because at least there's that, I don't know. I just think there's like this weird verification, like it wasn't just somebody in some dark basement. It's like, oh no, the guy is, this is the guy behind all of this. I know these things took on a life of their own, but it was still, this is the guy, you know. Yeah, it's the OD channel right here, you know? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. One last question before we land the plane here, mark. And, um, just a fun question. When you guys are coming up with big decisions like you did three, four years ago to, to not be doing those deals in the back alley at expos and things like that, um, are you guys doing that over cocktails or are you doing that over coffee? It used to be always coffee every single morning, uh, behind our office building in downtown Seattle. In the alleyway. Yeah. We'd just like go out there, you know, before we go upstairs. And everyone used to be in the office, obviously. And before we would see everybody, we would go grab coffee. It was like, I mean, we did coffee. It was always coffee. Yeah. Coffee, Seattle, Seattle. It kind of makes sense too. Yeah. Or maybe in college, I mean, always, we always did it over coffee, but I, I always say two founders are better than three because to make sometimes those decisions ultimately whether we go, we mutually agreed on the same thing or one of us is a stronger opinion than the other. It's, you know, the intent is obviously growth, right? It's like it's for the betterment of and after work. So I always tell people like, we actually micro fight about, like, in my opinion, a thousand times a day, right? Again, micro fights like the way he'll look at me to like, you know, shut up or whatever. But ultimately two is better than three in order in making sometimes those decisions, because even if I'm wrong. And I still tried it and he told me not to, you know, it's like, oh, it's okay. Um, yeah. But at the same time, if I'm right and he told me not to, I definitely let him have it. You know, like I, I knew it told you so, told you so, you know, I think, but also good, like at least we know something. Just make those decisions. Yeah. Like make those decisions. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Interesting. On that, I was interviewing Dave Mortenson, who's the co-founder of Anytime Fitness, and I asked him, he has a co-founder Chuck Runyon, and I asked him like, you know, when's the last time you guys like, butted heads? And he is like, uh, earlier today they've been partners since 20 20, 20, 20 0 2. He is like, yeah, ev every day. And at some point you just gotta be like, cool, let's go with your decision. And then they have the same dynamic. If it's right, the other guy's gonna be like, I told you dumbass. Then if they're wrong, you're like, I told you so. I think that's great. You know, that the challenge would be, you know, like a lot of the emerging brands that I, that I work with have one founder. And that, that becomes a challenge because sometimes you just have to have these conversations out loud to see if it makes sense when you get it outta your head and get some feedback. And these founders are working with people that are working for them. So you might have people that are just agreeing with them all the time, or if it's something that's scary in terms of finances, they don't wanna share that. So, you know, they're surrounded by people, but they can't really share everything that they have on their minds. You know what I mean? Now they have chat GBT. Ah, good point. Yeah. Yeah. There you go. It is, I mean, again, I always try to think I'm 43 now. Um, you know, we started this thing, we were roughly in our early twenties and I always try to think like, what could I have told myself, you know, sooner? Again, it, it was, you know, it was all the cliche stuff that everyone hears. But again, like when you're, it's hard. I, I sympathize with a lot of emerging, you know, people because. I felt like we were emerging for 16 years. I mean, I was worried about payroll every two weeks. Like every two weeks. So, so when someone comes up with their genius advice of like how you're a really smart person, it's like, you know, I'm here you, but like, I'm literally trying to make payroll again in two weeks, you know? Right. And like you're just in that cycle. And it's like, I just keep trying, what could I have told myself to that person who's just, every two weeks payroll cycle, just like, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. Or even, even if they have four weeks of payroll in the bank, or sorry, four payroll cycles in the bank, it's still just, you're just like, you know, but if you hire wrong, you, that money's gonna be gone a lot quicker, da da da da. I mean, I just feel like you just have to shoot those shots. You have to like just go, you know, try to try your best because again, the one good person you bring on will save you a lot of time, and then obviously the ones that are not good, you just gotta get good at, letting them go earlier. I mean, it just sucks. It's like, it's the part of capitalism that I thought that was the hardest lesson I've probably learned in the last 14 months, two years, especially as we started to do better, is. You know, I always thought DevHub can be the place where anyone can work. I always just say like, uh, none of us would've been friends in high school, but at DevHub we can be a can.'cause you know, it's like a lot of, misfits and like we just hire anybody at, you know, earlier on.'cause we couldn't afford a lot of people unfortunately. You know, that got us in a lot of different trouble in theory. We were scared sometimes to pay for certain people. Just didn't believe people needed that type of salary. You know, the ones that have had some experience. But, you know, we got to a place where it's not a family, it's a sport. And you're choosing DevHub because like, you wanna win and you wanna compete for yourself, for your, whatever your interests are outside of DevHub and. You know, it's like if you're not, you know, if you're running your play, whatever department you're in, whatever your role is, and you can't do that, you're out. And it's just like we've got place now at DevHub where it's not just like, uh oh, it's okay, you can do it. Uh, no, no. Yeah. Not here. Yeah. You know? But again, that was like, I just, I don't know. I, I think I, we led, or I led with a lot of. To a certain humanity. That was very forgiving, because I thought, I never felt special in the sense that if I can do it, anyone can do it. Come on. This isn't that hard. Like let's go. Like stop talking about it, be about it, la, all those things. Sure. Where now it's just purely like we want the best, and if I can tell the person who's chasing payroll, it's like, and you're the one single founder or whatever, it's like, find the next person. Find an person, hire that executive then if that's what you need, and it's scary and it costs money, but when you got it right, you're, you'll know. You'll know. Yeah. There's always this hell, I, I honestly think you can tell even with a new employee within a month, if they were the right person or I genuinely, you can tell by the way they communicate. I mean, you just know are they really in it? Better. Lemme do this. Fine. If you can't figure it out in a week, or sorry in a month, you'll figure it out in three months. Yeah. You know, so at least six months and don't let it go past six. We always say the second you can throw up a, a couple pink flags, you better get it before it turns red. You know, like, okay. So, yeah. Yeah, that's great advice. so many of the, the people that we're working with. They're either dealing with somebody, you know, like a founder that's not pulling their weight or um, just people that, that aren't executing. And then we'll make that recommendation.'cause it's usually single founders and be like, yes, go ahead. Let that person go. Put some ads out there. Do what you need to do, recruit, get them out. And then. You know, at least half the time, they're like, I'm so glad I didn't realize how much that was slowing me down or on my mind, or keeping me awake at night. Right? Not, not one person. Unless it's like, again, I will say the only caveat to this whole thing is, again, if it's a layoff because of the performance of the business, that's different. But the, as an individual who you are actually just letting go, not because of the state of the business, but just because of pink flags about that individual. Your shoulders just relax. You're just like, oh, that was a weight, a mental weight. I'm not even talking about like, forget the slowing down of the actual business. It's like, what a mental weight. It's a hundred percent of the time it's or it's relief. Good to know. Good to know. That's, that's 18 years of experience talking right there. Having done it a bunch of times, we went through, I began, look, I've learned, everything I've learned has been at DevHub. I've never worked for anybody in my life. I've learned it all the extremely hard way, which is called trial and error, and if I can save anyone time, that's what I'm for when it comes to this topic of entrepreneurship and whatnot. Because it's like, man, I was the biggest idiot. Not you, don't worry about it. I made those mistakes, so you don't have to. Right. Nice. Thanks for sharing that and helping people out. I know we're a little bit over on time. I just, if you don't mind, I just wanted to, I'm good. I'm good. Okay. I really wanted to touch base, um, on your non-business creative pursuits. The reason that I'm asking is selfish because when I was trying to grow our business and growing our business, I was just in it and having a good time. Loved the people I worked with most of 'em. And when we, when we sold the business and I had some time on my hands, I realized that I had kept up with physical fitness, but I had done nothing else creatively at all. So I started paying, playing really, really bad guitar, which I still do. And I was like, I should have been doing this. But do you perform live? While I was growing the business. Do you perform live? No. Oh my gosh. No. Not yet. I'm, I'm not very good. Lemme tell you. But guess what? You're good looking. Thanks. You know what I mean? It's all filters. No, you need to perform live. I mean, look. Look, so as we sort of started, I don't know if it was recording at that moment, I believe the real meaning of Groundhog's Day, like the actual movie, is really just like every day you have a choice of what you get to do. Period. I mean, as close as you can get to doing everything that you want to do in that day, right? Telling the people you love, that you love them, to the creative things, to your business things. The best I've ever gotten is like 80%, right? I could probably say, you know, like, again, I would love to fly private just to go do something stupid on the day and still come back and like, you know, do that whole thing. But anyway, um, so again, I don't watch sports. I don't have a lot of bro friends. I just believe in all the, it's like what kind of entertainment or creative outlet would I want to see in the world? And again, like I was playing guitar and I was you and you're wearing black and you look cool. But I would already, I look, I'll show the camera. Lemme see. Lemme see. Look. What is, what is that? That's my, that's the logo of my Okay. Of my band that I don't even have, right? Okay. Yeah. Merch. I have merch, I have a website. I have the logo of a tattoo, of a, like I'm already selling out Madison Square Garden. Okay. All right. All of it. I'm launching a talk show sometime in the next two weeks. I've already filmed two episodes. I'm gonna film a third one, uh, next week. Nice. I paint, I play piano, and again, I just always think like one, it's as much as it is for me. It's for people. It's fun. It's like, look, if you can take this idiot to go do that thing. Why, like, and again, you like you're good looking. It's like you play guitar. Like go perform. Go perform. You know why?'cause there's so many people that would have so much talent that do nothing with it. And again, there's a line from um, I think it's a Bronx Tale, where he says to talent. And again, the fact that you're willing to even strum on a guitar is talent. It's like, and again, I'll tell you how I got into a lot of those art, you know, fine art painting stuff, piano, this talk show idea, podcast, all the creative pursuits, um, that I take on is, it just serves as like a really weird, I, I, I'm gonna say the wrong word here, but distraction from the business. In a way, in a way that like, you know, it's like one of those things that, you know, they say like when you're always looking at the money or you're always looking down, like you don't make it 'cause you don't look up. It's like in some ways I look at it like it's my version of looking up without, with like the weird hope. That like, oh, you know, I'm gonna sell at Madison Square Garden because I'm the greatest piano player. I'm actually not. I'm the literally the worst piano player on the planet. I can guarantee it. I can't, I can't count. I don't have rhythm. I know that But I, I still believe I can sell out Madison Square Garden. Let me daydream about that. To pass those 20 minutes of practice, 30 minutes of practice, an hour to not let me be constantly thinking about DevHub, which is what I actually do, 98% high time. And it, and then by fluke, that 1, 2, 3 hour daydream or piano session or hosting that talk show like. In that time, maybe we got that email back that got us that huge deal that we've been waiting for. Are they gonna sign, you know, or, or that problem that's happening at the company that like, I can't exert any more energy. Like, it's kind of one of those things that just probably just needs time. We've already talked about it. We can't just keep beating it to death. So then let me go, you know, and it just like, it's helped move time. In a way that like reason why I tell our people, you should moonlight, you should have ha hobbies, you should have all the things. As long as it doesn't affect your job, go for it. Yeah. And like, I just think it just, yeah, it helps because it's like, because otherwise it's like, okay, let's say what if DevHub never sells? Now what if DevHub. I mean, all the things that you, someone might say about them, their own stuff. Oh, how about if I lose my job and da da? At least like if you inch that thing along, guitar, piano, fine art talk, show, podcast, whatever the hell your creative pursuit is, like you're already that much more ahead than if you would've never done it. Yeah. And so it's like, I dunno, I think about all of that all the time, but again, it's like, it's very interesting. The more I learn about people and myself, how many people do not even start one, two, have a hidden talent, but just don't expose it. Or someone who starts like you, but don't take it to the next level. Like you're already at the next level. Like you do not, you gotta go perform now. Okay. I will say performing live, and as I was saying about the talk show yesterday, it's like my heart rate was like 117, 120 to beating, you know? And then as soon it was over, like you kind of come down from it. Yeah. When you perform live your first time, you're gonna, even in front of 12 people, I get the rockstar thing, I get the actor thing. I get any of those things. Yeah. Where unlike business sometimes you're in the background a lot. You know, even though you are the boss, you're like still really in the background. Like no one knows totally what you do. But when you put yourself out there playing a musical instrument, totally. Hosting a show, I mean, all the things with a live studio audience, I mean, the whole thing. I mean, that high is. It's very addictive. Yeah, it's very addictive. Yeah. Yeah. So the whole creative, when I was, when I was researching you, I, you know, I just saw you like your, your shows, your art shows, and you know, how long you've been doing a podcast and all this. And, and the thing that got me was thinking about it was like he's doing, and it actually became even more clear because there's this. Where you are now is a lot different than where you were five years ago, right? Hundred. Yeah. I mean, with, with the company size and, you know, financial and, and accomplishments and because people see where you are now, they're like, oh, he probably always had this, you know, this, this extra time on his hands where he can just go do these little projects and things like that. And what you shared earlier is like, uh, no, we were still worried about payroll every two weeks and yet you were still doing this. Hundred percent. And, and it's, it's not just a, like, as you said, it's not just a distraction. It's like, it's like kind of shower thoughts. Like when you get your good, good ideas in the shower and you can't write 'em down or anything, it's like you have to step away even in the midst of things when you're super busy to actually be more effective when you get back to it. A hundred percent. Like even those, let's just call them the broke ears. Um mm-hmm. While I were not, while it was never anything, some things were not like in the creative realm. It was like taking the first step in registering the domain name on the I, the other idea I had in case the thing that we were working on didn't work out in case we couldn't make that payroll. Right. Like, and it was just like a lot, like unfortunately, I, I still pay for. Those hundred plus domain names now, uh, Henry Godad GoDaddies, where it's at because of all your domain name purchases. It's like whatever that is. A hundred times, $10, uh, a month or whatever a year for yet they get it every year. And I go through the list every year and I'm like, I still might do that one day. You know? Okay. But again, like in creating that alongside, not making that payroll, you know, or not, it just like, well, in case there's this, again, it gives you a little bit of that extra hope. I don't know. Like it just, yeah. It's the right distraction. It's not, distraction doesn't, has to be the negative word here. You know what I mean? Like it's, yeah. I mean, the alternative is going to the corner bar and getting hammered. Can we, that's also a distraction, right? Yeah, that's true. Thank you so much for being on. It's been, uh, a really interesting conversation on multiple fronts and thanks for sharing your journey, candidly and honestly, because I think when people get to the place you're at, everybody thinks it was probably easy in the beginning and particularly how long it took you to get to where you are. It makes the story that much better and gives more people inspiration. So I really appreciate you being on the show. Thanks. Yeah. Uh, we make a very concerted effort to like document everything, not just writing it in a journal, but if you go to devhub.com/history, that whole history exists there. So, oh, okay. One might point people towards that. Yeah. I just never wanted anyone to be like, oh, they just built a tech company. It's like, yeah, right. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And then all the millions came flowing in and yeah, he had all this time on his hands, so he took up piano. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. This has been fantastic. I love these conversations and I really appreciate you taking the time and getting to know you a bit. That wraps up today's episode of the Franchise Scale Up Show. This gave you a strategy you can put into play. Please share it with one founder who needs the help. You might save them months of pain. If you're ready to go deeper, whether it's building your support infrastructure, accelerating territory sales, or preparing for private equity, go to gee coffee.com. That's G-U-Y-C-O-F-F. EY and book a free franchise growth strategy call. I only partner with founders who are committed to scaling without losing control. If that's you, I'd love to connect. Until next time, protect your vision. Move fast and scale smart. I'm Gee, coffee Talk soon.